20 years of stories: ABC’s Conversations with Sarah Kanowski & Richard Fidler hits the road
ABC Conversations: Fan-favourite guests from the last 20 years
For the past 20 years, ABC’s Conversations has told the stories of the famous and the unknown, the brave, the brilliant … and the quietly extraordinary.
Program: Bonus: when Sarah's Dad's fruit shop map went viral
Thanks to her dad Peter's hand-drawn map, a shopping trip Sarah Kanowski made for her parents during the Covid-19 crisis gladdened hearts on social media around the world.
Responding to that blossoming of interest, Sarah recorded this father-daughter chat, in which we get to know more about 89-year-old Peter Kanowski.
5 Questions with Sarah Kanowski
Q1. Was broadcasting always your career dream?
My mum was a teacher and Dad was a forester and we were a dyed-in-the-wool ABC family. My dad's now 95 and Mum’s 90, and the radio is still always on. I sometimes think, did I just end up at the ABC as a way for someone to bloody listen to me, because in a house of seven kids my voice was not heard. It's like the only way that anyone would pay attention is if I came out of that transistor on the kitchen bench. I definitely grew up in a house that valued public conversation. Mum and Dad were strong Catholics, so there was a big emphasis on stories of people who were maybe on the margins or stories for good. I had no one in my family who was involved in journalism or broadcast; they're all teachers or healthcare people. I don't call myself a journalist because a real journalist would have to be much more combative or interrogative in their interviewing than we are on Conversations. In pre-records, we'll say to a guest, “If there's any part of the story that you don't want included, or if I'm touching on something you don't want to talk about, we'll move on.” Of course, you can't do that as a news journalist.
Q2. What’s been your best career move?
I had no plan or strategy, except I wanted to do interesting work that felt meaningful. When I was working as a producer with Phillip Adams, I was invited to fill in for someone on a four-hour, late-night, live religion talkback show on local radio. It was sink or swim; there wasn’t much support, and there’d be call-ins. A senior Radio National person I respect said, “I don't think you should do it. It’s a bit of a poisoned chalice – you might just crash and burn.” I thought about it, but I'm really glad I didn't listen to that advice. So what if you crash and burn? You’ll still learn something from it. And if you just wait for when you're ready, those opportunities might not come again. And it went well. It was not glorious radio, but it was fun, and no one died making it. So then when other opportunities came in – to present drive or breakfast or whatever – I thought, just say yes. So what if you fail?
Q3. Now one of Australia’s most popular podcasts, Conversations is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year with a national tour. Why is it so beloved by listeners?
I was a listener who loved it before I joined the show. I remember being at home with babies, just gripped by stories that I didn't expect to be gripped by. It was all killer, no filler. You knew it was going to be compelling and unexpected. Now, in the world that we’re in, and after the massive changes in the media landscape, I feel that we offer a refuge – this little island where you just know whoever's being spoken to is going to be treated with respect. It's not going to be a battle. We've got a big podcast audience, but we're also on two national networks five times a week, and it'll go from the news, with whatever fresh horror, to this hour where we sit with another human and take it at a totally different pace. Laugh together, cry together, be surprised together. There are all these other important things that the media do, like truth-telling, exposure and accountability, and they're essential. But Richard uses the analogy of a campfire: it's this very old human activity of listening to each other's stories, and the hunger for that is only greater given how fractious and fractured our society seems to be. It's the “fabulous nobodies” or “golden ordinaries” that stand out for me – the guests who don't think of themselves as special. In fact, they may think of themselves as having stuffed up a repeated bunch of times. They're the stories that are really precious.
Q4. What makes a good interviewer?
The biggest thing is just listening – so, short questions that let the spotlight be on the guest. And for a show like Convos, research. With an author, I'll always read the book. It astonishes me how often they say, “Oh, you've actually read the book!” Research is even more important with high-profile people, because you're trying to find stuff that they haven't talked about ad nauseum. With Conversations, we'll have a brief that's maybe 15 to 20 pages long. We know what story points we want to hit with that guest, and where we want to land at the end. The impression, hopefully, is relaxed, and there'll be spontaneous moments, but there's a huge amount of work and thinking and planning.
Q5. What changes have you seen for women in radio and podcasting?
It's funny, my father-in-law will still say, “Oh, I heard you on the radio” – and it won't be me, it'll be another woman, but he just hears all women's voices the same way. I know that those listeners are there, and they're in my family, but I think that question can't be separated from the changes socially for women in my lifetime. The idea that there would not be women present in any part of the making of something, whether as a presenter, producer, tech, is just so weird. It's like those blinkers have been taken off us, and hopefully they’ll be taken off in terms of diversity of background and sexuality, all of it, because it's much more interesting when there's a mix of people. There's no going back to it being the norm, which it was when I joined the ABC, having a whole day of men presenters. On the We Can Do Hard Things podcast, they have one episode a week where they talk to a White House correspondent, Jessica Yellin. It's about, how can we take in this whole bin fire of the world? Because there's such a problem with people turning off from the news. I can relate to it. How do we stay informed in a way that doesn't destroy our nervous system? Maybe a group of men would think of doing that as well. But I really love these new ways of telling even hard news in a way that takes account of the emotional intelligence of the people involved – both the listeners and the makers – and doesn't pretend we're just intellects. It's exciting.
